Interview with the band:
Never mind that Sugar Ray has sold more than 2.5 million copies of Floored, the band's 1997 release. Ignore the fact that the album is still on the Billboard 200. Forget the band's last U.S. tour, during which it sold out almost every venue. And the band's fashion spreads in Rolling Stone and Details? Yawn.
It turns out that familiarity really does breed contempt when it comes to Newport Beach-based Sugar Ray. The band may be huge everywhere else, but serious music fans in OC see Sugar Ray as the musical equivalent of the Spice Boys. "Everyone told me how much they sucked. Then I heard 'Fly,' which was kind of catchy, so I went and caught them at Doheny Days last year," a friend told me. "I couldn't believe how much they blew."
It's a problem the band acknowledges and on which women are especially voluble. When I asked a rock journalist if there was a Southern California media blackout on Sugar Ray, she said she hoped so-that she couldn't get paid enough to write about a band she described as "fucking dicks" who "treat women like shit."
Lead singer Mark McGrath didn't help matters when he recently told Cosmopolitan: "I think it's okay if I cheat. I've never been faithful in a relationship."
Male scenesters aren't likely to be much more charitable. One music-industry executive told me of a party in South County at which he allegedly encountered an allegedly drunk band member (he refused to say which one). "The guy was just totally fucked-up and annoying," he said. "He kept asking my friend for a ride and saying: 'Don't you know who I am? I'm in Sugar Ray!'"
Some past local gigs have been disasters. For a 1997 show at Fullerton's Club 369, the band took the stage hours late, and McGrath appeared to be more than half in the bag. When things went badly and the audience grew restive, McGrath attacked them. "All you guys out there are jealous of me 'cause your girlfriends would rather fuck me than you," he said. It's the kind of thing that might have seemed true for a moment-the guy has model good looks, and hey, he's a rock star-until McGrath fell offstage and crawled to the wings, leaving bassist Murphy Karges and guitarist Rodney Sheppard to fill in on vocals.
"I need beers to perform," McGrath once told Rolling Stone. "It's not a crutch. I just need them."
The band acknowledges it may never be asked into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Strangely, they don't seem to mind.
What do they mind? The lack of hometown press. No one at the Weekly wants to write about the guys, and Los Angeles Times critic Mike Boehm called their 1997 hit "Fly" "as irresistible as it is lightweight." The band, he said, has graduated "from idiocy to banality."
Ouch.
At a tattered LA recording studio where Sugar Ray are three-quarters of the way through their third album (working title: Raised by Wolves), I meet three members of the band- pretty reserved guys in their mid-20s who look like they are beginning to feel the pressure of following up on multiplatinum success.
"We know the critics are waiting for this one," McGrath says. "They're praying this one fails. . . . What do you want to drink?"
Tubs of free Budweiser? Frosty pyramids of complimentary Coke? Instead, we're limited to the studio's vending machine. McGrath generously digs into the pockets of his Dickies for loose change.
The conversation turns quickly from the merits of writing in the studio to the evolution of their hit single "Fly," about which there was some controversy.
Murphy Karges: We weren't sure of our material at that time [during the Floored sessions]. We were wondering if people were going to hate us and laugh at us because of "Fly."
Mark McGrath: We obviously knew "Fly" could've been a hit last time-we just didn't realize how big it was going to get. It had the mechanics of possibly going big, but there wasn't anything else [mainstream] on that record.
OC Weekly: But I've read that the band thought "Fly" sucked and that it got to the point where you guys were even thinking about breaking up during those sessions.
McGrath: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hated the fuckin' song. The origin of that song was real lushy and was sort of monotonous. I wasn't really feeling it, you know? And at that time, I was more into a Slayer and Korn direction. I still love those bands, but we all experimented and found a little niche and . . . It's weird: "Fly" seemed like the type of song that was consciously written, but it was five people coming together and throwing their 2 cents in, and then having [producer] Dave Kahne come in, and then getting [reggae-dancehall singer] Super Cat to come in. . . . I mean, how premeditated is a song when you have Super Cat-a Kingston killer-fly in from Jamaica to cut a track with four white guys from Newport Beach?
Rodney Sheppard: And one black guy from Pasadena.
Is Atlantic [their record company] in here every day demanding another "Fly"?
McGrath: Since day one, they have always said they'd be hands-off, and we can do whatever we want. This will be our third record. We've been in the studio collectively [throughout those recordings] for about eight months, and the label has come by three times total.
You always beat your critics to the punch. You acknowledge you're in essence a three-chord punk band. Is that your defense against criticism?
Sheppard: We're more than that: we know four chords now.
McGrath: Yeah, we know what we're doing. We'll pull out our [underground cult heroes] Sebadoh records if you want us to. We'll talk "indie," but it doesn't interest us. Music has supplemented our lives as opposed to making us cool. We've always done things we liked. But I'm sorry; I like pretending I'm [Judas Priest's] Rob Halford singing "Head out to the Highway." I think it's funny. I'm not trying to be cool; I just like that. We're from the beach; it's where we grew up. It's a Baywatch atmosphere. We like to have a good time. We say dumb things. We drink too much. We're not trying to be anything but what we are, and that has been perceived as brainless and stupid-and I agree with a lot of that criticism.
Karges: It's funny: once we played a show at the Coach House, and we got a really bad review from Mike Boehm. He destroyed us-called our music something like "brainless three-chord frat rock." And I figured everyone read it, and I just remember someone saying, "But isn't that the stuff that usually gets signed and goes big?"
McGrath: We've never been the critical darlings, and we've never set out to be. We've never been in any kind of scene. We've always made fun of ourselves. We're not kidding ourselves in terms of our limits as players or singers anymore.
Karges: We'll always do the lame thing.
Sheppard: On purpose, though.
Karges: We're boneheads.
But there are a lot of music critics in Orange County who refuse to give Sugar Ray any ink nowadays because of those bonehead attitudes.
Karges: Here's the thing: I bought a house in Newport Beach, and I read the local papers. But it's funny that we're shunned from OC. We've sold 2 million records. Aren't [those writers] the slightest bit interested?
McGrath: [his voice louder with each word] We know what we're doing: we found out what works for us, and that's it. You know, we could be at Club Mesa, still playing the first slot on a Thursday night, or at some coffeehouse. But that doesn't serve my aspirations anymore. I just think [music critics are] responsible for reporting that. I can understand if it's not cool for a journalist trying to make their way to Spin through, say, the OC Weekly to like Sugar Ray. But I also think it's negligent to not acknowledge a band that's sold 2 million fuckin' records in their own back yard. I'm not saying music journalists have to like this band, but if we were Dwight Yoakam, I'd assume those writers would say, "Hey, this guy lives just down the street; let's interview him." I'm not asking for press, but I just think there's a story here, and [writers] are irresponsible if they don't report it. But I understand completely why those people don't [write about us]. This band is admittedly juvenile. We're trying to improve our songwriting; we're trying to get better. But what other local band goes out and gets Super Cat on their record? I dare someone to do that! I'm not trying to ask for any indie credibility-because we have none, and we never wanted any. And I'm not bitter. Anything Boehm has said in an article [about us] is totally true, but it's slanted as a negative.
Sheppard: So, anyway, Mike Boehm sucks. But let's move on.
Hmm, well, it's probably too late to change critics' minds. I mean, I've told a lot of people in the music industry that I got this interview, and almost all of them have told me to rip you guys new assholes.
Sheppard: Jesus, we're just a bunch of guys from Newport.
McGrath: I think it's funny that people even think about us. That's all I've ever wanted, though. Love us or hate us, but just think about us.
Karges: It cracks me up to know that people hate us with such a passion.
McGrath: To me, it's been worthwhile because I'd hate to just be in a band to make a record. For example: the band Water from Orange County. They got signed to MCA, their record came out, and they just went away. They never did anything wrong, but no one remembers, and no one cares. To me, we've made fuckin' history, no matter if you fuckin' hate us-whether you think we're Nazis during World War II or fuckin' Gandhi.
So what should music critics do if they don't think you're Gandhi?
McGrath: Somebody's own personal diatribe is: maybe some kid wants to read about Sugar Ray, you know. A group of people sitting in an office, determining who gets to hear about a story in their own back yard, is . . .
Sheppard: It's totally irresponsible.
McGrath: If you don't just get us-tongue in cheek-then grab a beer, go and sit down, and relax. But if you go away afterward and our band affects your life, you have other problems, man.
You said earlier that you've made history. Where do you think you're going to be in something like the Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll in 20 years?
Karges: Well, I don't know about that.
McGrath: No, no. We've made history because once you've charted a record-I mean we have a platinum record-that's historical. For the rest of your life, you can look up our record anywhere-the Rock & Roll Encyclopedia or whatever-and we'll be there. I mean, I've always judged a band being historically significant by having a marked certified record.
Some critics point out that you attract a mostly teen and even preteen crowd.
McGrath: It's really weird, you know? We get the teens, which is great, but the last time [we toured], it was kind of awkward. For a lot of them, it was their first concert, so a lot of the girls were, like, 9 or 10. There's definitely that demographic, but I have a lot of older people-the 20s crowd got eliminated-but, like, the Merrill Lynch guy digs it. I'm telling you: if you're living on that indie edge, reading Flipside everyday, you are not going to like this band.
So, how much criticism are you getting for being on the cover of last month's Cosmopolitan?
McGrath: It's funny how that evolved because originally, it was supposed to be a little quarter-page [feature] in a cheesy "All About Men" issue. It was supposed to be really small, and I even did the interview first. Then we did the photo shoot, and I guess they liked those pictures, so we did more and more pictures, and then they said, "You know, we think we might want you for the cover." What am I gonna say? No?
Karges: The interview got him in a lot of trouble because he didn't take it like it was a big deal.
McGrath: It's because I was trying to bark and rant and rave so someone would notice me, and I sorta said anything just to stick out somewhere. But if I knew I was going to be on the front cover, I would have really toned down the interview. I wouldn't have been so caustic 'cause it's not really my personality. I was a little macho, bragging, and I wasn't happy with [the end result] at all. My mom was even bummed. She called me, crying-which was the most devastating thing that ever happened to me involving music, if you call [the Cosmo cover] music-related. I definitely would have toned down the interview a little bit more if I knew I was gonna be on the cover. This is no spin-doctor quality control. It's just what happened.
So when you found out you were going to be on the cover, did you go back to the band and have them get ready for the repercussions?
McGrath: They didn't give a shit.
Karges: Like I said: we never had credibility anyway, so who gives a shit?
So you just accept the bad reviews and press now?
McGrath: We expect it now.
Karges: This band has always gotten fastballs thrown at our heads. People have always wanted to see us go down, so we're fairly used to it. It does get frustrating. You'd love to see maybe an article anywhere. I mean, I'm glad you guys are finally doing something on us-a band from Newport Beach-'cause now I'll get to go to Wahoo's, pick up an OC Weekly, eat fish tacos and finally read about us.
McGrath: We never really have interviews like this, where we talk about why people do or don't like us. But since this is a local interview, it's nice to be able to give our opinions back. Here's a story about a band that came from Newport Beach that has sold over 2 fuckin' million records, and it's being ignored. And that's my only criticism.
The band must be filthy rich by now. Would you exchange it all to be respected musicians rather than the critics' whipping boys?
McGrath: No. I was the guy who used to dye my hair blond. I was a break dancer. I like the Backstreet Boys; they make me happy. It's who I am. I like Tom Cruise in a movie. I'm very lame; I'll admit that. But I'll also jam with Zeke during the Warped Tour and know what the hell is going on musically. But if everyone liked us, we'd be doing something wrong. Critical darlings? That would be great, but I think we would be doing something wrong if everybody liked us.
Interview from Buzzine with Mark McGrath:
Steph: How'd you feel about the show? (She interviewed them right after their show)
Mark: It was really a lot of fun. It was cool playing in front of everybody. It was kind of a different crowd now because of "Fly" being on KROQ (ED: LA station), it had like a little alternative vibe to it. So it was cool, a lot of friends there and some new people. It was a lot of fun.
Steph: So you know Nick Casinelli in New York? (He's a friend of Steph's
Mark: Yes I do. He's a good guy.
Steph: Now he warned me a lot about you guys. I was warned about spitting and nudity. But I didn't see any of those things.
Mark: Yeah you know, we're sort of growing up a little bit now, you know what I mean? I'll save the spitting and nudity for just home.
Steph: It wasn't because your Dad was there?
Mark: Well, maybe it was!
Steph: Ah ha!
Mark: And my sister.
Steph: *laughs*
Mark: Well actually, my Dad encourages that stuff!
Steph: That's funny. Oh! Did you know that Tom Arnold was in the audience?
Mark: Actually I did know that because our bass player, Murphy, his brother is one of Tom Arnold's assistants. Yeah, he became a fan of the band, he heard the record, and he likes it a lot so he came by. That was really a trip. He's a nice guy too.
Steph: Now on the record, you have the two versions of "Fly" one with Super Cat. When you played it live you had the sampling going on.
Mark: We're still massaging that. Last night was only the fourth time we've ever played "Fly" live. The first time being last weekend at the Blockbuster Show in front of 100,000 people. So we've been kind of thrown into the fire. It's on a DAT and we're still trying to see what really works with Super Cat you know because we've always sampled before but there're parts where we're going to have to redo the DAT. It's one of those things where only experimentation gets it right.
Steph: It sounded great to me.
Mark: Yeah! It's getting better. We still have to iron out some rough edges. "Fly" is the unique song in the set, we've sort of always mixed around with different kinds of music and different sounds. But usually live shows we've always been straightforward hard rocking. So getting that entity, like that dynamic in working "Fly", you know, throwing in the samples and things after coming off volume ten guitars is something that we're working on. But I thought it was cool, it's going well.
Steph: Absolutely!
Mark: Yeah, in this day and age of like people listening to Sublime and Korn on the same radio station, it's cool that people could come out and hear that live
Steph: Why the two versions on the CD. Were you hesitant about using just the version with Super Cat?
Mark: That was just completely a corporate move. You know people say that corporate rock sucks, you can say whatever, but it's been great for me. But being on a major label, it's a business and there is a series of compromises you have to make. Atlantic would like to see this thing eventually go to pop radio. They just didn't want to turn anybody off who maybe didn't like the reggae thing and so they included that version. I'm really bummed out because when we originally made "Fly", I always knew that we wanted to have a dance hall guy doing Jamaican toasting throughout the single. But Atlantic said, "We want to hear some early demos" and all the stuff. So we sent them out an early demo before Super Cat got on it. So their ears really got use to hearing it as it was without Cat. So when Super Cat came in and did it, it was done to me then. But some of them heard Cat, and they weren't sure and they held on to the unfinished song.
Steph: So they're both on it now.
Mark: Yeah, you know if a radio station plays the version without Cat and somebody went out and bought the record and that version wasn't available, I'd really be pissed off.
Steph: You know, that's funny because I heard the unfinished version first and loved it. But then I heard the Super Cat version and after the 2nd or 3rd time, I was hooked. I can't listen to the other one now.
Mark: That's the way I feel! That's the danger of releasing demos early. I mean they're trying to help out and guide your career and that's their job, I understand that but I always tried to disclaim, "Now we're NOT done with this!" So what are you going to do about it? I remember once the Breeders released a song called, "Saints." The version you heard on the radio and on MTV was not the version on the record. When I bought the record, I felt sooo ripped off.
Steph: So you're on your way to the WARPED tour. You just did Blockbuster. Was that the biggest gig you've done so far?
Mark: It was insanity. I mean when we went on, it was about 110,000 people. That is the biggest show we've ever done by far. Before that, it was about 15,000 people.
Steph: 15,000 is a lot.
Mark: 15,000 is a lot! We did some of the festivals in Europe but that Blockbuster thing was insane. There were just so many human beings. It was like no one was there; there were so many people.
Steph: Do you feel that you lose something in the mix with so many people? Or do you feel you pulled it off?
Mark: I felt we did really well. The crowd.we were a real different band on the bill as opposed to Jewel and Counting Crows. The crowd in between bands were like moshing to Duncan Shiek.
Steph: *laughs*
Mark: And then we went on and I went, "This is great, they're ready for this." So we went on and the kids were like reacting to it. Some people know us but we're not widely known. It was really a good thing for us.
Steph: Now was that the show where a singer from one of the bands did a stage dive and landed on a security guard breaking his neck?
Mark: Yeah.
Steph: I saw where you were quoted as saying you'd never stage dive again because of that? Steph: Oh no.
Mark: Yeah, sort of like cocky and we're like, "oh s**t." And then towards the end of their set, he did it again but I started to walk away when I saw him start to do it because we had to get ready for our set. I didn't know anything had happened. So after our set, someone told me that when he did that stage dive, he broke a security guy's neck.
Steph: Wow.
Mark: Next thing I know, our guitar player says, "Yeah man, they took the singer off in handcuffs." Yeah, he was totally arrested. So after that, I go, "Wow man, I'm never stage diving again!"
Steph: Not even worth the risk
Mark: It really isn't. I've run the gauntlet many times of stage diving; I've jumped all over the place, gone crazy. Then once in Tokyo, I did a little innocent one and I thought I broke my back. So ever since then, I've been sort of, "Been there, done that."
Steph: You were, "Please catch me!"
Mark: Exactly. Now Im just, "I'll stay up here like I'm suppose to."
Steph: (we laugh) There is such a buzz about you guys, I did a really decent review on FLOORED, "RPM" kicks ass
Mark: I'm so glad to hear you say that, I really appreciate that.
Steph: Is RPM the next single?
Mark: It's looking like it might be. I'm leaning towards "Stand and Deliver". It will be a nice transition, the bridge between "Fly" and the harder stuff. It's a nice novelty. A lot of PDs will pick it up and it will remind them of their prom date in the 80s or something. But if it's not "Stand and Deliver" it will definitely be "RPM."
Steph: The song kicks. I was jazzed that you open with it.
Mark: It's a good opener. It's really fun to open with it because it gets people involved right away. It's a great example of how we don't traditionally use DJs in our band. Craig's like a second guitar player in that song.
Steph: Is that DJ Homicide?
Mark: Yeah, DJ Homicide, he's not really a killer. He's a nice guy. I call him Craig. We live together and it's unfit at the dinner table to go, "Hey Homicide, pass the rolls." (we laugh) So I'm always blowing his stage name.
Steph: That's cute. So you guys are on your way. Looking ahead, how big do you want it to get?
Mark: As big as my head
Steph: Right on.
Mark: I'm kidding you. I don't know about Eddie Vedder and guys like that but I certainly didn't sign a contract and made music and got out here and playedwe've done all the sh**ty showswe didn't do that to not sell records and to not become popular and get acknowledged. Anything that happens is great! It's already gravy, just being on rotation on MTV! It's something I never thought possible. I don't know why, I'm a real pessimist.
Steph: It's going now.
Mark: Yeah, it's really cool seeing all these things happen. A lot of people try to down play if you become popular. All your core fans will say that you sold out. But those people have said that we sold out for years anyway and we didn't sell any records!
Steph: (We laugh)
Mark: You can only go up from here!
Steph: How was it working with David Kahne on "Floored?"
Mark: Unreal. Unreal because of his work ethic, his attention to detail is just so incredible. He is just so cerebral and intelligent. He would get moved emotionally during the mixing and recording process. Sometimes he would sit there when we didn't know what we wanted to do with a part and he would go, "Ah, I feel sick." He'd get out and compose himself. I didn't see him use the bathroom one time.
Steph: Omigod.
Mark: Not one time! I'd get there after him and leave before him every time. He's just so incredibly committed and dedicated. He's a songwriter, he's an engineer, he's a mixer. All you can ask in a producer is to have a vision throughout. He maintained it. He taught me where I needed to be vocally and what notes would work for me on the radio and stuff like that. We were a band at that time that needed a real taskmaster. We sort of had a bunch of songs out there sort of wallowing in a directionless pit. He came and structured it and shaped it. He's really responsible for a lot of things we have going right now. We're totally grateful to him.
Steph: It sounds great.
Mark: I appreciate that.
Steph: It's one of the few CDs that I've gotten where instantly, I don't take it out for a very long time.
Mark: That's so good to hear Stephanie, I can't tell you. That feels good.
Steph: Advice for unsigned bands?
Mark: The advice I have is sort of cliched. If you're in a bandI don't know, it's easy for myself, I've always thought this is what I should be doing. It's hard to explain. Do you believe yourself that you can do that? Can you visualize success? Can you visualize being on stage? Can you visualize, I don't knowwell, as lame as it soundsbeing on MTV? You know what I mean?
Steph: Yeah.
Mark: That's what has worked for me. I've just sort of visualized these things. I remember a long time ago thinking that I wanted to see our name, Sugar Ray, the label we're onon like the Billboard Top 200. The album you know. Just at like 182. Just be in that mix. I guess reports are, it's going to happen this week.
Steph: That's so cool.
Mark: So you just got to visualize and just believe. I've really had to work at it because I don't have that great of a voice to work with so I really had to believe in myself. Most people know what they should be doing. As long as you admit it to yourself, everything will be cool.
I give FULL credit for this interview to Buzzine. If you know of an interview that I could use please E-Mail me and let me know about it! :-) thanks!
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